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Walter Haugen's avatar

I am glad you are tackling the complexity question Gunnar. This was something forced on me many years ago. As an antiwar activist from 1968-1975, I started asking questions and then researching the answers. The first one was, "How did the US get involved in this insane war in Vietnam?" This led to the second question, "What in the hell is wrong with the US?" And then of course there was the third question, "What are we going to do about it?" Since I had been doing archaeology in the field in 1968 and 1969, I quite naturally gravitated to an anthropological and social science orientation. This led to collapse and complexity studies. It is no accident that Joseph Tainter is an archaeologist. Another archaeologist who looked at these kinds of questions and who I highly recommend is Ian Morris, especially his 2010 book, Why the West Rules - For Now.

I looked at the 2011 Tainter article you mentioned and it is behind a paywall, but the abstract and blurb I could read gives the gist of his position. He says, "The common view of history assumes that complexity and resource consumption have emerged through innovation facilitated by surplus energy. This view leads to the supposition that complexity and consumption are voluntary, and that we can therefore achieve a sustainable future through conservation. Such an assumption is substantially incorrect. History suggests that complexity most commonly increases to solve problems, and compels increase in resource use."

I disagree based on Tainter's predisposition for integrative theory. In The Collapse of Complex Societies (1988), Tainter mentions conflict theory vs. integrative theory. Conflict theory argues that societies become more complex because the elites strive for more control and more power. Integrative theory argues that societies become more complex because they solve problems. Think capitalists exploiting workers vs. an administrative state that regulates irrigation so that everyone benefits from increased food production. Tainter acknowledges that conflict theory has some good points but comes down on the side of integrative theory. This is the origin of his "problem solving" paradigm, as noted in the article abstract quoted above. I default to conflict theory, based on my experience in over fifty years of research, as well as a political education in the streets trying to stop an insane war. The anti-insane war activities also led to alternative efforts in food co-ops, food growing, starting farmers markets, teaching sustainable methods, etc. The bottom line is that the administrative state is not there to provide benefits for all. It was not so in ancient Sumer, nor in Rome, nor in the 21st century. One could make an argument that I am looking at this issue from a perspective that has already witnessed an inflection point in marginal returns, but that objection really doesn't fly. Ancient Sumer saw collapse BECAUSE of the elite control of the administrative state, as did Bronze Age Mycenae, ancient Rome, the Maya, etc. This argues for control of the administrative state by the elites for their own ends right from the beginning.

Like many anthropologists, Joseph Tainter has a vested interest in his career, which depends on a state-level society with surplus for professors. My particular work doesn't. One should look long and hard at how people make a living and whether that colors their research and conclusions. That said, I still regard Tainter's 1988 book as very important. It provides a sound basis in conflict vs. integrative theory, adds in marginal returns and uses case studies to illustrate his points. He also - which I think is most important - mentions that when a society collapses, it declines into regional polities. This is Tainter's most important point, in my opinion.

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TheWhyExplained's avatar

Excellent post .. many great points.

If possible, please set up a BlueSky account so I can refer your post to others I correspond with others on sustainability

Finally, my great great grandfather is from Skurup, Skaine, Sweden .. where his son Olaf migrated to US early 1900s ending up w a 20 acre parcel in Iowa

Regards

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