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Gunnar Rundgren's avatar

In general, I agree with most comments here even if I might differ on details. I am not sure we are heading for a collapse in any dramatic sense, rather a series of contractions which will play out differently in different places. I also believe that a fragmentation is likely as stated by Walter.

For sure, as I also write, the link between the energy supply and the industrial civilzation is very strong. And fossil fuels supply most of that energy. But it is equally true that there are periods and places where the link is weaker in both aspects. As oil was so cheap in the period from WWII to the 1970s, there was a lot of waste. Therefore, it was also not difficult to combine growth with a reduced use of energy per unit if GDP for a while.

In any case, my discussion on decoupling is slightly irrelevant if you already think it is flawed concept, which it very well might be.....It is more directed to those that still cling to this as a "solution".

But I also find it interesting - and possibly relevant - to disentangle the material aspects of the economy in more detail than broad statements about termodynamics and dissipation and this post is a reflection of my efforts to do so in the context of a new book project I am busy with.

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The Atavist's avatar

The economy IS energy, as you point out. If Sweden is growing at the same time as reducing energy consumption, well, it's not. Their energy consumption is outsourced somewhere - someone is consuming that energy on their behalf and they have gamed the model to increase their share of the benefits. This is in fact a big part of the strategy of the USA - aside from the fact that they burn vast amounts of energy themselves, they have gamed the model through various forms of occupation so that a disproportionate share of profits generated by other countrys' burning of energy also ends up in their coffers. It's the strategy of individuals in the middle and upper classes as well, all but subsistence tribals. If all those out there making middle class incomes think they are actually creating five or six digits worth of output, of value, they couldn't be more profoundly wrong. What you are doing is tapping into the energy output of all that oil being burned, as we are as a collective. So it's either this, or the data you've sourced for Sweden somehow hallucinatory, and there's a great deal of that out there now. The bottom line is this: there is for our economy the closest thing to a 1:1 ratio between GDP and the burning of fossil fuels as is statistically possible. Also, we aren't going to find a solution to warding off collapse because collapse IS the solution to where we are in our trajectory today, it's law. We aren't going to subvert the laws of thermodynamics and entropy anymore than any other civilization has. We'd have to find an energy source offering all that oil and the system built around it and several more planets like ours to go with it to avoid collapse, and many have crunched the numbers showing why and how this is an impossibility at this stage, and given the properties of oil, probably any stage. Ours was a one-off ride this time around. I personally believe it would make for more interesting, and dare i say potentially valuable, discourse could we move beyond the "what is the solution here?" phase. There isn't one, other than the same solution to a locust plague. All roads eventually lead to collapse, just as they do to death for individuals. And then something comes along to recondense the dissipated energy to new advantage. With the recovery not a process to be measured on a scale relevant to single human lifespans. All signs today place us nearer the juncture of those roads than we clearly prefer. There is a great deal to discuss, all this being the reality.

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